Former Countries

Isn't Macedonia a country now? Must have been a different Macedonia...

This is exactly the reason why the Greeks are angry at the FYROM for usurping the name of their region for the newly founded Slavic state. People mistakenly assume it is the homeland of Alexandre, when it is not.

Since I wrote that last post, I found that out first-hand, last month crossing from Greece to Macedonia by train. I was riding in a carriage with some young Macedonians returning from a few days holiday in Greece. Two weird things happened: firstly, the Macedonians had to give a separate piece of paper with their passports to the Greek border guards, onto which the guard stamped the Greek exit stamp (ie the Greeks refuse to put that exit stamp into a passport titled Republic of Macedonia), and secondly the Greek guard muttered "Malaka" to the young Macedonian (who evenly replied "I am not a Malaka") - I asked what that was about, and it turns out that "Malaka" is a term of abuse, a bit like "asshole" - can you imagine a professional border guy swearing at nationals about to enter their own countries like that?

Macedonia didn't usurp anything. The name doesn't belong to Greece. It's the name of a region, which the country of Macedonia sits squarely in. Greek Macedonia is also in the region of Macedonia. If anything was usurped it might be the name "Greek" and Greek history by the Greek nationalists of the 1800s. At the time the term "Greek" had come to mean any Greek-speaking Christian living in in the Ottoman Empire (and as the Byzantine Empire spoke Greek, that was a very wide-ranging and far flung assortment of unrelated people), but the Greek nationalists decided that they somehow owned it and the rights to everything ever associated with it in history. Greek nationalism and Macedonian nationalism were both born around the same time. The Greeks were more successful earlier on. Though they didn't even control the portion of Macedonia that they now do until after the Balkan War of 1913.

Not just the Greek and Macedonian nationalists fight over Alexander and the name Macedonia, Albania also thinks they have a claim.

And then the Oliver Stone movie came out and depicted Alexander having a fondness for one of his generals (besides his wife). All of a sudden Macedonian nationalists declared Alexander must have been Albanian all along....

All those things happened long before contemporary nation states, nationalism, a lot of migrations, religions, etc.

Still nationalists try to put very selected parts of historical figures on pedestals. It's almost a religion on it's own, with deities or saints.

^ all nationalist movements are inherently bogus and rely on creation myths. Particularly when that nationalist movement is centered around an effort to create an ethno-state. That goes for the Greeks, Macedonians, Israelis, Italians, Germans, French.... even Americans to an extent, though American nationalism is centered around common ideals rather than ethnicity or religion. It works slightly better. But they still have their own creation myths.

@ Kabalhamut

Only a very small percentage of the ancient Macedonia belongs to the now called FYROM. FYROM doesn't sit "squarely in", only this small part. While the Greek part contains also the tomb of the Phillipp II, the capital of ancient Macedonia, the birthplace of Alexander and Phillip etc.

Dwight your use of "FYROM" suggests bias. But I'll be generous and just assume you haven't looked at many maps. Here's one.

Here's another

Here are two more before Philip and after Philip

I preemptively accept your apology.

Kabalhamut, in your 3 maps you posted (the 4th doesn't work for me at least), there are all completely different borders of the kingdom. There is a difference between the Kingdom of Macedonia and its dependent territories too. I didn't say that the country that is formally known as FYROM doesn't have territories in the ancient kindgom of Macedonia - Bulgaria too has territory that once were in the kingdom of Macedonia. Still, the capital, the most important cities, and the core of the kingdom lies in todays Greece. Israel and Syria once belonged to the kingdom of Macedonia, maybe they want that name too? Or they would like to be named East Roman Empire? Or Ottoman Empire?

The use of Macedonia from you also suggest bias in my opinion too, but I won't start answering you with this.

Lumi: I disagree. Some nationalist movements are more bogus and rely more on lies than others, but nationalism itself is a bogus idea so I don't accept any nationalist movement as legitimate. It's impossible.

Dwight: when you're talking about a kingdom that existed in ancient history and pursued an expansionist military policy for decades you're going to come up with different maps. The point is, in ALL of these maps, the borders of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia include AT LEAST a large chunk of the modern nation-state the Republic of Macedonia, if they don't include the country's territory in its entirety. Your argument is incredibly weak. If Syria wanted to call itself Macedonia, you know what? Nobody should care. Let them. Countries have the right to name themselves whatever they want.

And what I just said aside (which is still absolutely true, countries should be allowed to name themselves, it's absurd to argue differently), when the ancient region of Macedonia includes "FYROM," AND Thrace, AND portions of Bulgaria and Albania etc... it makes perfect sense that if there is a new independent country founded within that ancient region that they should want to use that name. The fact that there exists a Republic of Macedonia does not mean that the region known as Greek Macedonia does not exist. Just like the existence of The United States of America does not mean that there does not exist a continent of North America or South America. Just like the Republic of Korea and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea do not cancel each other out. And if people don't want to say some ridiculous mouthful every time they say the name of a country and just shorten it to "Macedonia" or "America"... that's fine and to be expected anyway.

Back in the day, there was no Macedonia, the country. There was a region in modern day Greece that was called Macedonia. Alexander the Great was born in Pella, Greece which is in the region called Macedonia. Macedonia (the region) extends to the country Macedonia however. Pella does border modern day Macedonia and Macedonia claims that Alexander the Great was not born in Pella but was born within their country borders. To appease Greece (although it only slightly worked) they made their name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, abbreviated FYROM.

The region of Macedonia was not exclusively in Greece. The modern-day Republic of Macedonia was entirely within the ancient region of Macedonia. This region also included present-day Greek Macedonia, as well as bits of Albania, Bulgaria, and Serbia. Pella is indeed inside the present borders of Greece (but only since 1913), and Alexander was born there, but Alexander is not the region of Macedonia. The Republic of Macedonia has certainly NOT made their name FYROM. Only Greeks refer to the RoM as FYROM. And Macedonians don't care about appeasing Greeks. If anything they go out of their way to piss them off. Just as Greeks go out of their way to piss off Macedonians. Sometimes one or the other will do something to appease the EU, and the EU ties to keep things as relatively amicable as they can.

enough with the fyromian propaganda.

back to school you have to go

Are you really so eager to let everyone know about your ignorance and bigotry? I would be ashamed and try to keep it to myself, especially given that yours is out of date. Complaining about "Fyromian propaganda" in 2021, 2 years after the name was already changed, god that's pathetic... ffs let it go... and then trying to label bland factual non-partisan statements as "propaganda" just goes to show how brainwashed the person desperately attempting to label said facts is. There's nothing even remotely moot or up for debate about anything in the above comment. Nor any opinions. Certainly no propaganda. Just straight facts about history and geography.

Did you read any of the above?

Bayern should deffinantly work for Bavaria.

Could you accept Manchu or Manchuria for Manchukuo?

Seconded. as the kuo, or 國, means country, it serves the same purpose as the -ia suffix.

Yugoslavia technically split only to Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia. Both Montenegro and Kosovo split from Serbia and Montenegro and Serbia.

I agree, 1992 Yugoslavia split into two countries, Macedonia and Yugoslavia.

And, during the Yugoslavian wars(1991-1995), Yugoslavia split into 5 countries:

Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, and Serbia and Montenegro(Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia).

Yeah, but what you have now is incorrect. It's either a country that split into five countries or a country that is now seven countries. It would be kind of like saying that when the Roman Empire split in half that it split into 40 countries or however many there are now.

It first split in to 2 countries. Those 2 countries split further in to 6 countries. Those 6 countries split further in to 7 countries. It's accurate to say that the first country split in to 7 countries. It just didn't happen all at the same time.

What about Zaire? Very nice quiz.

Zaire is still a country. Only its name changed, nothing else. That answer would belong in a quiz about countries which had changed their names at some point (e.g., Burma, Burkina Faso, etc.).

People tend to assume it was one of the original colonies, simply because it's in New England. Same with Maine.

Maine was my first guess, since I knew that it Vermont were among the first to gain statehood after the original colonies.

Actually Maine didn’t become a state until 1820. It was the 23rd state under the Missouri Compromise.

Scotland and Wales are still very much countries.

That do not exercise individual sovereignty... countries yes but not nation-state countries.

Glad this has turned up again, I've missed it from one or two quizzes lately.

Or even just the Roman Empire, technically that's correct. It only started being called the Byzantine Empire by historians many centuries after the fact.

What about Central America (officially, the Federal Republic of Central America)? It was an independent and sovereign country for 20 years.

Some more suggestions I have for you are Upper Volta and Dahomey.

Upper volta was the former name of burkina faso

Wow quite a coincidence, just yesterday (evening and I have just woken up) I read about Dahomey, no idea how I ended up there, was clicking through wikipedia pages. I had actually strangely not heard of it before (while I do know Zanzibar, Rhodesia, Zaire etc)

I know I am a little bit late but Upper Volta and Dahomey are just the former names of Burkina Faso and Benin, just like Zaire to DRC.

can you accept Byzantium on its own I got the question wrong because of it

Greenland?

Greenland was not and still isn't a full country recognized by us (yet lol). It's still just an autonomous country within Denmark.

Vermont I got on my first guess.

I'm not sure if you meant llama in the Tibet one, but if it was really llama, it's spelled wrong.

The Dalai Lama is a Buddhist monk and the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people. A llama is a domesticated South American camelid, widely used as a meat and pack animal by Andean cultures since the Pre-Columbian era.

Probably my favourite misunderstanding so far haha 👍👍

A one L lama, he's a priest

A two 'l' llama, he's a beast.

A three 'l' lllama is a big fire.

With apologies to Ogden Nash

Suggestions: Austria-Hungary and Poland-Lithuania

Very good quiz I also like how you included Manchuria however you could have included more countries such as: South Yemen, Malaya, Tanganyika, Austria hungry, Saar, United Arab republic, South Vietnam, Triest and Orange free state.

Before it was Zimbabwe it was known as Southern Rhodesia to distinguish it from Northern Rhodesia, which became Zambia. The story is a little more complicated than that, but you should at least allow for Southern Rhodesia (currently it does not recognize it) and use the full name in the answer.

The Yugoslavia question needs to be corrected, it split into 6 countries, not 7.

This is American based. We recognize Kosovo.

No, technically, it split into 5; Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, The country that must not be named (FYROM), and The Union State of Serbia and Montenegro. Then later in 2006, a Montenegrin independence referendum split S&M into, well, Serbia and Montenegro. Then Kosovo became a self declared state two years later, with limited recognition.

Scotland and Wales are countries, They just aren't independent.

Name these countries that no longer exist, or are no longer sovereign.

Did you read the description?

Byzantium was the city the preceded Constantinople, which in turn preceded Istanbul. The Byzantine Empire was a separate entity entirely.

It has two accepted meanings, one for the city and one for the empire and should be accepted in this quiz too.

The description says sovereign. They were countries, sure, but they were part of the German Empire. It's similar to Scotland, England, Wales, and the United Kingdom.

You could include Hawaii, that one is also a former country.

Byzantium should also be accepted

Has this quiz generated the most bickering ever?

I add my two pence worth to get it going again.

It is ironic all the debate about Macedonia and the Greeks passionately claiming it and Alexander when the Ancient Greeks definitely didn't consider Macedonia part of Greece and described its people (Philip and Alexander included) as barbarians.

Right up until they were conquered by the 'barbarians' who suddenly became Greek

I just think it's bizarre that a man, however impressive, that lived 2300 years ago could inspire genuine hostility between countries. I think it's childish when I see grown men fight over sports teams, but the notion that these countries are still actively disputing where someone was born 23 centuries ago is both amazing and very sad.

What about Zaire?

Zaire is different. Zaire only changed its name to DR Congo, it didn't gain or lose any territory.

I think this is right, correct me if I'm wrong.

Prussia still existed as kingdom during the German Empire. The Kaiser was both the Emperor of the Germans and King of Prussia. Considering that other countries like Zanzinbar which was under British soverenty are included on this list, Prussia's end date should be changed to 1933 when the Nazi's took power and rid of the country.

Never in the quiz did it say that Zanzibar was an independent nation. It only said that the territories that were considered Zanzibar and Tanganyika controlled by the British combined to form Tanzania.

Hawaii should be included before Vermont or Texas.

Agreed

Yes

In what sense was Rhodesia (South) not recognized?

Gran Columbia?

Byzantium should be a type in as well, instead of just Byzantine

When you try Tuva, East Turkistan, and even Acre only to realize it was Tibet

I mean, the Lama clue is quite easy in my opinion.

... But it was independent when China split apart between warlords and even before that.